Moments of Permanence - Derailment Redux: Lois McMaster Bujold Hypocrisy Special Edition

About Derailment Redux: Lois McMaster Bujold Hypocrisy Special Edition

Previous Entry Derailment Redux: Lois McMaster Bujold Hypocrisy Special Edition May. 10th, 2009 @ 08:06 am Next Entry
The qualitative differences in my thought processes between ADHD-medicated and unmedicated is:

a) whoa, profound

b) hard for me to remember/believe/recognise when unmedicated.

Today I can tell because I've been reading/thinking about the same stuff since before I took my meds, and I can remember what I was thinking about, trying to put into words earlier, as opposed to now, and... yeah. I'm not sure words can describe the difference in experience between my unmedicated, off-the-charts-how-did-you-get-to-28-before-diagnosis self and my medicated self.

Anyway, on to the topic, in which I pick up Someone Is Wrong On The Internet, in the category of RaceFail '09 Version 2.0, The New Failbatch. ([personal profile] naraht is taking the turn as Archivist of the Revolution this time.)

The thread of derailment I wish to cut today: Man, these people are totally over-reacting on the basis of one sentence in a review!

No. No, we're not.

The review sentence to which they refer:
This is an alternate version of our world which is full of magic, and where America (“Columbia”) was discovered empty of people but full of dangerous animals, many of them magical.
Which is, yes, the oft-quoted summation, but is not the entire basis of criticism.

Which is not to say it wouldn't be enough, but it doesn't actually preclude the possibility that the text itself is an instance of total failure. The chances aren't good, but it's possible for that to be an accurate description of a good book.

As it happens, it isn't a description of a good book, but nobody's disputing the accuracy.

Allow me (well, this is my journal; just try and stop me) to collate some of the things which are Known and cause serious problems with The Thirteenth Child. I've already made some reference to the ways in which the approach taken is just bad history, but I'm going to break it down a little harder here.

Quoting Lois McMaster Bujold, as a definitely non-hostile source of description:
The book actually began with a contemplation of the what-if question, "What would happen if the megafauna survived into historic times...?" The theory presently being argued in archeology is that the pre-Columbian settlers wiped out said megafauna, and that's the one Pat chose to follow up; so if one wants mammoths and short-faced bears and terror birds, the Bering land bridge human immigration needed not to have taken place, 13,000 years back. From that, the rest followed, q.s. to the limits of a necessarily slim volume.
From the tor.com discussion thread.

OK, for a start: citation fucking needed. The current state of archaeology is not my personal area of expertise, but if the extinction of the megafauna is being blamed on pre-Columbian settlers, that is not the dominant view, at all, and with good reason: it makes no sense. Why would the same hunter-gatherer groups which later lived in harmony with their prey such that the plains of North America crawled with buffalo hunt even larger animals to extinction?

Lest I become what I seek to destroy, have a reference:
The extinction of megafauna around the world was probably due to environmental and ecological factors. It was almost completed by the end of the last ice age. It is believed that megafauna initially came into existence in response to glacial conditions and became extinct with the onset of warmer climates.

In temperate Eurasia and North America, megafauna extinction concluded simultaneously with the replacement of the vast periglacial tundra by an immense area of forest. Glacial species, such as mammoths and woolly rhinocerous, were replaced by animals better adapted to forests, such as elk, deer and pigs. Reindeers (caribou) retreated north, while horses moved south to the central Asian steppe. This all happened about 10 000 years ago, despite the fact that humans colonised North America less than 15 000 years ago and non-tropical Eurasia nearly 1 million years ago.
Source: The Australian Museum, factsheet on megafauna extinction.

So... the groups who would later become native Americans moved into North America, spent five thousand years living in harmony with the megafauna, then set about exterminating them utterly. That makes perfect sense OH WAIT no it doesn't.

Secondly, the assumption that crossing the Eurasian land bridge into North America precludes human settlement is blatantly stupid; that's not the only route into the Americas. Potatoes got to Polynesia somehow. And "... it was BECAUSE OF MAGIC" is inadequate explanation for the barriers.

Moving on.

We now have the question of content within the text. As I said previously, it's not impossible to write this kind of speculative fantasy well - but you have to consider the ramifications of your choices. My own study of US history is some years ago now, was mostly focussed on the period from the Civil War to the end of the Cold War, so my historical credentials here are thin - and yet, I nonetheless know better.

Some key points:

1) Crops

Without the "New World" crops and edible flora of all sorts already having been identified and cultivated by the native population, the settlers are going to have trouble working out what's poisonous and what's not. Introduced-crop failures are going to cause mass starvation. This is skated lightly past in the text.

2) Labour

The colonies were severely short of labour. Part of the solution was the indentured servitude of debtors from Europe. (Interestingly, the New Yorker recently had an article on just this. (Abstract only without registration.) Debt to England was one of the issues that - it can and has been argued - produced the American Revolution. However, that wasn't enough, nor was the convict labour (the Americas received convict transportees before Australia did). The rest was slavery.

If you give the "Aphrikans" South America and don't include slavery, then you should have a desperate labour shortage. You should also have widespread starvation and disease in the case of crop failure. (If you have settlers in a land where there aren't any natives, crop failures should be near-constant early on, by the way.)

3) Nothin' but Names

In order to show that the native population was never ever there, all the places in America that have names derived from native sources have different names.

Consider the implication of this (it's a very short reach): the only mark the native population has left on America is place names. Nothing else.

I'm not sure how I can detail exactly what's wrong with that in less than two thousand words. Suffice to say that this is completely, utterly, horrendously inaccurate.

The cultural legacy of American history is complex. Too complex for me - I don't know enough to unravel it. Neither, I suspect, does Wrede, or at least she hasn't thought about it. See this post, again, for a summary treatment of why this is historically invalid.

I hope by now I've established that the critiques of the book aren't operating on knee-jerk hostility. Please note that people who really get into this kind of discussion - the people who stay past "omg that's so racist", and don't in fact ever actually say that - can generally be relied upon not to be reacting on that kind of reflex, because that gets no-one anywhere, especially them. Because now we get to...

The Tone Argument.

I have trouble not inserting an obscene adjective before the word "tone" there.

*cracks knuckles*

Let's stay specific for now, shall we? Lois Bujold, again:
Which begs a larger question: what is the function of fiction? Social engineering? Propaganda, sermon? Or something else? Windows? Mirrors?

People who come down on the social-engineering side do tend to value a book by how well it serves some agenda outside of itself. I see that as a slippery slope, myself.
Give me a break.

This is wonderfully archetypal derailment. There's a woman in one of my classes who does this - whenever I say something she wants to disagree with, but can't, because the facts are on my side and she can't actually refute my argument without redefining the terms of the discussion, she tries to do exactly that.

Fiction has many functions. Anyone who has ever thought about it or looked into it already knows that well.

Not to quote someone's own words against them, but - hell, why not? Bujold:
More and more as I read I have the sense not of entering another world, but of entering another writer’s head. There are some head-spaces I enjoy occupying, others I don’t. If the scenery is ugly, I don’t hang around.


That one's from an interview, so it may be something she didn't get the chance to think through, so let's take one from an essay of hers, just to be fair (emphasis mine):
Every writer writes their world-view; we cannot escape it, unless we're writing utter hack work to order in every detail, and even there it will leak through. And world-view is not limited to writers.

It follows that every time a reader reads a book, two world-views meet, or collide. There are, I think, four possible interactions between the reader's world-view and the writer's.

...

Second, the world-views can collide. In this case, the reader will find his world-views denied or disconfirmed by the text, which can be unpleasant, uncomfortable, or even infuriating. The reader will in this case heap scorn on the book, and sometimes its author, as when a left-leaning reader rejects the political scenarios in a book by a right-wing writer or a woman derides a book by a man who portrays women in ways she finds idiotic. That same angry reader mentioned before may reject with scorn a book that portrays the world as "too nice". It challenges his world-view, and he rejects it. "People aren't really like that! I know people, and people are scum!" Most people, most of the time, respond to challenges to their world-view and the extreme discomfort it engenders by defending their world-view, and finding some "good reason" to reject the challenging data as false, weak, biased, or wrong. Sometimes, obviously, the rejecting reader is quite right.
Unless they're rejecting something of which Bujold approves, apparently.

Questioning the moral background of fiction is entirely valid, and finding a writer's products problematic is something Bujold has, in the past, acknowledged to be only right and fair. And yet, criticising The Thirteenth Child is not. Anyone who finds that these well-discussed issues, based on undisputed facts about the content of the novel, are too problematic for them? They get told:
My mother -- born in 1912 -- used to have a phrase for this: "My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with the facts."

A stance of moral superiority really cannot be floated over an abyss of ignorance. (Though I admit, people routinely try.) It's especially not a sound footing for this book which, within the limits of its scope, actually does some very interesting things with subverting assumed Avyrupan dominances.
Because it's ignorant hypocrisy to respond to the facts, apparently. Also, it's not for critics.
The book deserves better than to be pored over by an inquisitor only seeking evidence for a conviction already decided upon.
"Inquisitor." Yeah, she went there.

And finally, to finish on Bujold - who, by the way, is only one of many people failing hard on this, but she's the most famous, and the one who's hit the Tone Argument most blatantly, and the easiest to research, we have the comment where she claims to have thought about it more. Really, you need to read the whole thing to understand the magnitude of her wrongness, but:
... despite the fact that Native Americans are over two million strong, voting citizens, fellow exiles in the 21st century, and many are educated, articulate, and perfectly able to speak for themselves (most of the major tribes have websites now, a thought both hopeful and boggling) poverty and discrimination do still fall disproportionately upon many others.
Why is it boggling that the tribes have websites? Because the savages shouldn't be part of the Internet? Because tribal identity shouldn't persist into the digital age, because everyone should have abandoned that primitive barbarism and adhered to nice, civilised European-American constructions of identity by now?

The mind, it boggles.

Next:
I still have a profound problem with any argument that leaps from hearsay to condemnation without any intervening stop at “evidence”. It doesn’t matter *what* the subject is, the *form* is wrong, even if the conclusion after examining the evidence bears out the initial belief.
So, anyone criticising this book was doing it with no evidence, so they're wrong, even if the evidence actually supports their criticisms. The fact that they're right doesn't matter, the way (she believes) they arrived at their rightness is flawed therefore the thing they're right about TOTALLY DOESN'T MATTER.

Seriously, how does anyone type this stuff and get far enough to hit "post" without realising how incredibly stupid and wrong they're being?

Enter the sanctimony:
The past is beyond anyone’s reach, and history is fractal -- one sperm over, and we would all have been our siblings, and our own self-centered universes would never have sprung into being at all -- so what can an ordinary person do right-here-right-now about any given hurt in the world?
First of all, bollocks. "History is fractal" - no, it isn't. It just ISN'T. Do you even understand what these words mean, Bujold? History is many things, and my love for it is deep and pure, and my knowledge of it, I'd wager, is substantially greater than yours... but history is not "fractal".

Secondly, one sperm over, and I might have been a man, I might have been a slightly different woman, but I would not have been my sibling, because my sister is two and a half years older than I am, and a slight sperm difference is not going to turn me into her. We had different gestational experiences - our mother was older, she was living a moderately different lifestyle, her body was different by virtue of having borne a child before. Even leaving out the difference in our life experiences post-birth, your statement is blatantly stupid.

Thirdly, one of the things ordinary people can do about "any given hurt in the world" is fight against it, and The Thirteenth Child is a "hurt in the world". Trying to deflect doesn't change that. It's not "just fiction", as you damn well know - stories have meaning, stories have power, and stories contribute to the ways in which we define the world in our "own self-centered (sic) universes". This means that - though it's not the biggest wound on the world, it's a wound, and all wounds need to be treated for the patient to recover fully.

She then goes on to list a bunch of charities she threw some money at, to demonstrate that her commitment to making the world a better place is so superior to everyone criticising this book, who obviously couldn't possibly be doing anything for the Native American population themselves - despite the fact that many do, despite the fact that many of them are Native Americans.

The next person to recommend I read Bujold... I can't guarantee I won't laugh in their face. I have standards, and she does not meet them.

And now it is time for me to switch my focus to the work I should be doing on my essay, before this post gets to the point where it's longer than the essay's going to be. (This is about 2500 words, but the essay is 4500 minimum.)

Current Music: This Is Ivy League - A Summer Chill

(Leave a comment) Page 1 of 2 - [1] [2]
From:[personal profile] keeva
Date: May 10th, 2009 03:16 am (UTC)
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The qualitative differences in my thought processes between ADHD-medicated and unmedicated is:
a) whoa, profound
b) hard for me to remember/believe/recognise when unmedicated.
Today I can tell because I've been reading/thinking about the same stuff since before I took my meds, and I can remember what I was thinking about, trying to put into words earlier, as opposed to now, and... yeah. I'm not sure words can describe the difference in experience between my unmedicated, off-the-charts-how-did-you-get-to-28-before-diagnosis self and my medicated self.

Yes! Yes, this!!

I came here for something else, to read about racefail or Bujold or whatever, but this is very good stuff that I was not expecting.

Now to read the rest of the post.

(You think you had it bad? I made it to 37!)
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From:[personal profile] sami
Date: May 10th, 2009 05:24 am (UTC)
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I take the view that this is My Damn Journal so I can post random bits if I want. I'm glad you liked it.
From:[personal profile] keeva
Date: May 10th, 2009 03:27 am (UTC)
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Great post!

The bit about the Indian nations having ZOMG WEB SITES ISN'T THAT BOGGLING reveals her as ignorant about both American Indians and the Internet.

You know, the local Tohono O'odham Nation here in southern Arizona has a pretty spiffy web site -- because they are the local government for their geographical area.

Would Bujold be similarly amazed to learn that, yes, counties and cities across America have web sites too? Or is it just the idea of Indians with web sites that fills her with such hope?

By the way, the Tohono O'odham site is miles better than Bujold's "official" site, which she apparently does not even maintain herself. :p
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From:[personal profile] sami
Date: May 10th, 2009 05:31 am (UTC)
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I'd kind of like to congratulate you on just reading the whole thing. I'm kind of bemused at how long it got.

*checks links* Wow, her official site maybe, one day, with help, could aspire to mediocrity. The Tohono O'odham site looks kind of Generic Local Government-ish, but I suppose that's more-or-less the point...

But yes, I thought that little remark was tremendously revealing about her preconceptions. Fundamentally, she seems to see the Native American population as being either completely assimilated, or savages; the idea that Native American people could be both fully-networked citizens of the twenty-first century and culturally and spiritually aligned with their tribal identities is apparently beyond her.
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From:[personal profile] eisen
Date: May 10th, 2009 06:05 am (UTC)
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This is a wonderful post but lo, I am too dead of brain to properly respond in full, so I cannot comment in more depth than to say just that.

This is a wonderful post.
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From:[personal profile] sami
Date: May 10th, 2009 06:37 am (UTC)
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Thank you.

If you have further comments at any point I'd be interested to see them, but I'm aware that, if nothing else, it's a hideously long monster of a post. (Essay-writing comes disturbingly easily to me sometimes. Seriously, 2500 words with light references in the space of a couple of hours. There's something wrong with me.)
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From:[personal profile] sami
Date: May 10th, 2009 07:31 am (UTC)
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On reflection, I think my favourite part of Bujold's failure is her contention that even if a conclusion turns out to be supported by the evidence, if she thinks you got to that conclusion without evidence, the conclusion is therefore wrong.

That's just hilarious.
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From:[personal profile] willow
Date: May 10th, 2009 08:42 am (UTC)
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My love of Miles Vorkosigan and how he defies the world that pre-judges his limited body and tries to ignore his brilliant mind is NOT enough to ignore that his writer is hip deep in some serious shite and refusing to acknowledge it.

OMG the Native Americans have websites?!

Pshh. And a good couple of them play WoW too, woman!

PS: Good post.

Edited 2009-05-10 08:42 am (UTC)
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From:[personal profile] sami
Date: May 10th, 2009 08:50 am (UTC)
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WHAT

THEY PLAY WoW?!?!

Next you'll be saying there are girls on the internet and people can be both dark-skinned and literate. AND THEN THE WORLD EXPLODES.

(Also, thank you.)
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From:[personal profile] spiralsheep
Date: May 10th, 2009 01:01 pm (UTC)
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Ahaha, pwn!

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From:[personal profile] skywardprodigal
Date: May 10th, 2009 01:11 pm (UTC)
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O.O

I read this at tor, got it despite the bbcodefail, and am all big eyes and "My hero!"

I am so glad, you dismantled and debunked the derailing and malice and ignorance for what it was.

!!!!

How would you like your internets?
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From:[personal profile] sami
Date: May 10th, 2009 02:51 pm (UTC)
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I would like my internets toasted, with jam, please.
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From:[personal profile] tamaranth
Date: May 10th, 2009 02:35 pm (UTC)
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I think you raise some excellent points here, and I'm going to go away and think about them.

Re the megafaunal extinction: I've certainly encountered the 'hunting to extinction' as an accepted theory, though it seems to be being countered by more recent findings. Fairly good summary of current theories, with citations, on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocene_extinctions#Hunting_hypothesis
From:[personal profile] keeva
Date: May 10th, 2009 06:20 pm (UTC)
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You'll find a lot of racist, white-/Euro-supremacist stuff has been "accepted theories" over the years.

There are very good reasons why many American Indians do not trust European/white scientists and historians.
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From:[personal profile] jonquil
Date: May 10th, 2009 02:59 pm (UTC)
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Thank you for the very, very lucid and complete destruction of the pseudo-history.
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From:[personal profile] susanreads
Date: May 10th, 2009 04:54 pm (UTC)

Your post rules

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I feel entirely unqualified to comment on the substantive issue, but I would like to send you an internet if I knew how to do that.
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From:[personal profile] robin_arede
Date: May 10th, 2009 06:52 pm (UTC)
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Here via the incredible links from Naraht's journal.

This piece is absolutely wonderful--I admire the writing (*happy sigh*), and even more the use of Bujold's interviews and essays because, yes, I believe she's leaping to defense of friend here, and she's not able to see the very real problems some readers might have, problems that she clearly had as a reader of sf herself (judging by the sf she's written which I adore plus the fantasy).

I haven't been sure of what I'll be using my DW journal for (fannish self is over at LJ), but I plan to subscribe to your journal because of this wonderful piece!

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From:[personal profile] jesse_the_k
Date: May 10th, 2009 11:49 pm (UTC)
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+1 to everything robin just said. Like woah. (May not be evident but those are GF doughnut holes.)
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From:[personal profile] were_duck
Date: May 10th, 2009 11:44 pm (UTC)

Here from naraht's links

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Wow. Thank you so much for deconstructing the tone argument. I read that comment by Bujold on the original thread and was really bugged by it, and then here you are doing all the work of explaining why this argument doesn't make sense!

I hope you don't mind me subbing to your journal! Also, do you mind if I link to this?
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From:[personal profile] sami
Date: May 10th, 2009 11:45 pm (UTC)

Re: Here from naraht's links

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I am delighted both by subscriptions and linking. :)
From:(Anonymous)
Date: May 11th, 2009 02:41 am (UTC)

Megafauna & first nations

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OK, for a start: citation fucking needed. The current state of archaeology is not my personal area of expertise, but if the extinction of the megafauna is being blamed on pre-Columbian settlers, that is not the dominant view, at all, and with good reason: it makes no sense. Why would the same hunter-gatherer groups which later lived in harmony with their prey such that the plains of North America crawled with buffalo hunt even larger animals to extinction?

Sami,
First, I will admit the argument about the extinction of American megafauna is controversial. BUT, the time period for extinction is suggestive. And the archeological and ecological evidence is swinging that way. Check out 1491 by Charles C. Mann.
Second, I think your view of the indigenous peoples is a little romanticized. Try looking into the records on warfare, slavery and torture. Like any culture there is much to be admired, but they have their flaws as well.
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From:[personal profile] sami
Date: May 11th, 2009 02:59 am (UTC)

Re: Megafauna & first nations

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OK, first: Please sign anonymous comments. I'm fairly relaxed about this - I do allow anonymous comments rather than requiring OpenID at the least, after all - but please attach a name to anonymous comments, so that you can be distinguished from other potential anonymous commenters. If you're a participant in this discussion elsewhere I'd prefer you identify that too.

People keep bringing up Charles Mann, and it's getting to the point where it deserves a separate post of its own, but, to summarise: No.

The time period is not suggestive. A difference of thousands of years between the onset of human habitation and the extinction of the megafauna is implausible, especially when a) the extinction was coaeval with significant climate change and b) the extinctions of multiple species happened around the same time.

Mann's thesis about mass depopulation of the Americas is unsupported by the evidence, no matter how hard he reaches.

First: The archaeology isn't there. There would be evidence, if he were right; there isn't. One or two graveyards is not enough.

Second: Assume that he were: that the majority of the population of the Americas had been wiped out by smallpox. If that were the case, then:

a) smallpox would have been present in the Americas, cropping up here and there the way it did in Europe

b) the descendents of the survivors would have had an inherited resistance to the disease, like Europeans do, because only those whose immune systems had adapted would have lived

Patently false. The "evidence" that is "swinging that way" is, I would suggest, produced out of a mixture of ideological taint (because it makes the annihilation of the indigenous peoples easier to stomach) and the desire to be "controversial" because that gets you attention and book deals.

Please note: Just because someone wrote a book on it doesn't mean it's true.

As for your second argument: Bollocks. Suggesting that a people are not so stupid as to hunt their food source to extinction, and basing that argument on the fact that, in the eras in which records become genuinely viable, they didn't, isn't romanticism, it's acceptance of fact. I'm not denying slash-and-burn agriculture or buffalo jumps - the point is, with their most ecologically foolish and animal-wasteful practices, the prey on which they were dependent remained bountiful.
From:(Anonymous)
Date: May 11th, 2009 03:42 am (UTC)
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Apologies, I don't have a Dreamwidth account so I'm posting this anon.

I disagree with your assessment of this situation. You're criticizing the writer because her premises are faulty in constructing an alternate history. Everything you've said beyond that appears to be ad hominem attacks that put a ton of words into people's mouths. Here's an example:

"the only mark the native population has left on America is place names"

I'm not seeing that supported by any of your evidence. Are you certain that's the limit of the alterations the author has made? Have you read the book to be certain of this? The rest of your comments seem to be directed in the same direction, especially when you discuss tone. Tone is such an incredibly difficult thing to understand via text, how do you know you're getting what Bujold is giving?

I can totally understand you rejecting the author's premises. Premises give us consistency, and consistency gives us suspension of disbelief. If you can't accept the premises, you won't be able to get into the book, and that's frequently the writer's fault. But that doesn't say to me that the book is wrong.

There are books I'd consider wrong. I'd still wouldn't censor them, but I would consider them wrong. And I'd attach a heavy dose of skeptical thinking and actual facts to go with them, so that people weren't emotionally moved to believe factually incorrect things. You're right in that fiction has power, and I think it's important to help people understand how media can influence them, because sometimes that power is used for wrong.

But here, I don't see it. I haven't read the book, I don't know how bad it gets. Have you? It sounds like normal alt history material to me, and thus far, no one's talked about how it advocates racism or hatred or genocide or anything of the like. Like most fiction of its kind, it's asking a really simple question. It might have premises you don't like, but why shouldn't they be able to ask that question? What makes it dangerous, in a world of books like The Bell Curve and people like David Duke?

Is it asking you to believe that Native Americans have done nothing noteworthy, that they are less for being who they are?
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From:(Anonymous)
Date: May 11th, 2009 03:42 am (UTC)
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Same guy, here's my sign:

Kurosau
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From:[personal profile] delfinnium
Date: May 11th, 2009 05:30 am (UTC)
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I love your essays, and you've made it so much easier to understand why LMB is wrong. And how badly she's failing.

I find it hard to trust a lot of sweeping statements in Science, even those that go '95% of Asians are lactose intolerant' because dude, that's not my experience in my country, right there. (and I'm a biology major. People making stupid statments are apparently the norm around here.)

Might I subscribe to your dw?

(and here I am, building up a reading list of articulate anti-racist writers. yay!)
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From:[personal profile] sami
Date: May 11th, 2009 06:29 am (UTC)
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No worries. :) The standard disclaimers in my profile about return subscriptions and general journal content apply. (Seriously, sometimes it's all trivial randomness around here.)
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From:[personal profile] sinope
Date: May 11th, 2009 04:23 pm (UTC)
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This was great. Thank you.

One minor note that I didn't see mentioned in the comments. Guns, Germs, and Steel, a pop-anthropology/geography/history book that purports to explain how geographic happenstance made white people rule the world, was a New York Times bestseller, and it spends a while expounding the "native peoples killed the megafauna" theory in the first few chapters. I suspect that this is the "theory presently argued in archeology," or at least the pop-culture origin of the idea.

(Incidentally, see here for an anthropologist's critique of the way that the book presents a "sham sort of anti-racism," both factually shaky and ultimately designed to reaffirm white folks in the idea that "the world as we know it is a regrettable inevitability.")
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From:[personal profile] sparkymonster
Date: May 11th, 2009 04:52 pm (UTC)
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THIS WAS SO AMAZING I ALMOST PASSED OUT
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From:[personal profile] kickair8p
Date: May 12th, 2009 12:39 am (UTC)
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"Secondly, one sperm over, and I might have been a man, I might have been a slightly different woman, but I would not have been my sibling, because my sister is two and a half years older than I am, and a slight sperm difference is not going to turn me into her."

Whoops, on this one she's right. One sperm over and you don't exist, some other person is born in your place. Of course, this is your sister or brother (or would be if you existed, which at this AU point you don't). Bujold isn't referring to your actual sister (the one two and a half years older than you are), but to one of the several million of your siblings who never existed specifically because you do.

Having said that . . . I don't think this example supports her point. We exist. Us, not our millions of AU siblings. This reality is the one we're living in, no matter how well or ill speculations on other realities serve us.

And when they serve us (and/or our neighbors) ill? The problem exists, and we exist.

~
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From:[personal profile] druidspell
Date: May 12th, 2009 12:55 am (UTC)
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Okay, I'm an Anthropology major specializing in New World Civilizations, and WOW, the arguments I could throw at her if I didn't think they would be deflected by her force-field of batshit...
*foghorn and crackle of PA system* "Attention all netizens, the S.S. Failboat is setting sail now from Batshit Harbor. Lois Mc-Master Bujold, your presence is required. Thank you for your attention, have a nice day, we're all off to die in a fire."
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From:(Anonymous)
Date: May 12th, 2009 05:39 am (UTC)
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Work doesn't permit lengthy comment, but I have to say this...

so what can an ordinary person do right-here-right-now about any given hurt in the world?

It boggles ME that the woman who wrote about Cordelia Naismith-Vorkosigan and Lupe dy Cazaril can even think to type those words.

Granted, those two are not ordinary people. But if this is what Bujold really thinks, I guess I was wrong to believe she meant them as INSPIRATIONS for us ordinary folks.
From:(Anonymous)
Date: May 12th, 2009 05:40 am (UTC)
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Eeep! Apologies. I'm sodzilla at livejournal, and I apparently cannot get the hang of the OpenID.
From:(Anonymous)
Date: May 12th, 2009 09:02 am (UTC)
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Thanks for locking me out. The closest I've come to being snarky is saying 'Riight', but you started out saying that I wasn't listening, and now that I'm either obtuse or bad at coherent thought. Oh, also, apparently your peacock thinks I'm an idiot. That's a really nice way to respond to criticism. So, as you've decided to be rude to me, I've decided to be rude in return and ignore your thread freeze to get in my last comment.

Seriously, why did you have to be such a jerk just because I disagreed with you? No, seriously? Why?

"How the hell are you parsing those as unrelated statements? She's saying that she's doing a familiar setting with one thing subtracted. That one thing is the Native Americans. Subtracting the Native Americans and having her American history be approximately the same IS saying removing the Native Americans won't make a difference."

She's said two things. First, she wants to play with a particular setting. Second, she can't write Native Americans and so wants to take them out of that particular setting. That means she's just performing a single cut, taking Native Americans out of the setting, which is nowhere near the same as saying that Native Americans don't make a difference to the setting. If you can dig up a quote where she said "Oh, it's okay, because if we just ignore Native Americans, it would've turned out like that anyhow," then I'll believe in what you're reading into this.

Right now, I disagree. If what you're saying is correct, then removing any culture from any alt history piece that even attempts to construct a setting similar to reality must be racism, because you're saying it is here. Find me some evidence to back up your claims that she's saying Native Americans didn't have an effect on the development of America, and I'll reconsider.

- Kurosau
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From:[personal profile] owl
Date: May 13th, 2009 10:36 pm (UTC)
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I'm not looking for wildly divergent history, because if it goes too far afield I won't get the right feel.

That right there. Not 'wildly divergent' if she takes out the native Americans implies that she thinks they didn't have much of an effect on history.
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From:[identity profile] vain-glory.myopenid.com
Date: May 12th, 2009 10:08 am (UTC)

here via metafandom

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That was a lucid taking-apart of Bujold's words. Your section on how the Columbian settlers would likely have perished without Native knowledge (and Native labour, sigh) was a very good point. Digression aside, I'm actually pretty disappointed that Bujold said all that, given that the last two books I've read by her did some things to push non-conventional female heroines, and one of them made a point of presenting a homosexual couple in a value-neutral light -- I guess 'agenda' is a term that only applies to things she disagrees with.

It's hard to wrap my head around how people can understand the importance of the writing in of previously marginalized voices when it comes to fiction, i.e. women and homosexuals, and yet miss the point so completely when the discourse shifts to issues regarding the visibility of racial 'minorities' (in this case, the complete elimination thereof). You're completely correct that all fiction is open to criticism on their moral grounds. Authorial intention is slippery at best, and even authors have ideological biases and blind spots that need to be questioned and unravelled.

The most ironic thing about Bojold's entire piece was this: "The past is beyond anyone’s reach, and history is fractal", which is a theme often used in post-colonial writing in order to highlight how official versions of history -aren't- complete, heterosexual white men being the sole arbiters of history and imperial discourse. That she'd just turn that around and use it to justify yet another text that replicates heteronormative standards is just... ugh.
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From:[personal profile] sami
Date: May 14th, 2009 12:55 am (UTC)

Re: here via metafandom

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Describing history as fractal is something I hadn't come across. And, as you may have gathered, I'm really not in favour. I have enough knowledge of both history and mathematics that it's just wrong to me.

However, it's very true that official histories can be extremely flawed, sometimes outright false.

I've never read Bujold's books, but she's one of the favourite writers of some of my dearest friends, so I had assumed they were reasonably good and I'm also really disappointed in her behaviour here.
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From:[personal profile] haddayr
Date: May 13th, 2009 02:11 am (UTC)
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This is a brilliant, well-organized, thoughtful, and compelling post. Thank you very much for putting all of this time and passion into it.
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From:(Anonymous)
Date: May 13th, 2009 10:21 am (UTC)
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Popped by due to lure of Bujold in a link elsewhere. And am now amused at comparing the reaction to this book to that of Carnival -- which has exactly the same 'what if' scenario of a world where one race is conspicuously missing. And which is getting flames for the opposite reason that this book is. It's a no-win scenario, apparently.
From:(Anonymous)
Date: May 13th, 2009 10:24 am (UTC)
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Ohyes, meant to add -- Bujold once wrote a book about a world in which there are no women, only men. Compare and discuss?
From:(Anonymous)
Date: May 13th, 2009 03:09 pm (UTC)
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hi, came here for the racefail, hope you don't mind if I stay to ask about your ADHD- would you mind telling me what kind of medication you're on?
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From:[personal profile] sami
Date: May 14th, 2009 12:52 am (UTC)
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Without some indication of why you want to know, yes.
(no subject) - (Anonymous) Expand
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