Moments of Permanence - Derailment Redux: Lois McMaster Bujold Hypocrisy Special Edition

From: willow Date: May 10th, 2009 08:42 am (UTC) (Link)

My love of Miles Vorkosigan and how he defies the world that pre-judges his limited body and tries to ignore his brilliant mind is NOT enough to ignore that his writer is hip deep in some serious shite and refusing to acknowledge it.

OMG the Native Americans have websites?!

Pshh. And a good couple of them play WoW too, woman!

PS: Good post.

Edited 2009-05-10 08:42 am (UTC)

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From: sami Date: May 10th, 2009 08:50 am (UTC) (Link)

WHAT

THEY PLAY WoW?!?!

Next you'll be saying there are girls on the internet and people can be both dark-skinned and literate. AND THEN THE WORLD EXPLODES.

(Also, thank you.)

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From: keeva Date: May 10th, 2009 06:19 pm (UTC) (Link)

Some of them are even articulate and well-spoken, which is inspirational and hopeful for the future, as well as rather boggleworthy!

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From: keeva Date: May 10th, 2009 06:18 pm (UTC) (Link)

YES BUT THEY ONLY PLAY TAUREN SHAMMIES

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From: skywardprodigal Date: May 11th, 2009 12:04 am (UTC) (Link)

And there are over 2 million of them!

(I think that was the bit that made me throw up in my mouth a little.)

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From: willow Date: May 11th, 2009 12:06 am (UTC) (Link)

My anger at that bit is just not EVER going to go away. I'm having a trifecta in my mind for 'Most Vile White Woman Author Ever'

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From: skywardprodigal Date: May 11th, 2009 12:17 am (UTC) (Link)

I feel you. And I'm not even NDN. Damn. I don't have to be NDN to get that genocide and language culture extinction is happening right now.

For her to say that?

She sick. She sick like sick dog.

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From: sami Date: May 11th, 2009 01:15 am (UTC) (Link)

At the very best, deeply misguided. That passage could be a whole essay of breakdown of wrongness all by itself.

(Hmm, I was wondering why I keep seeing NDN crop up for Native Americans. First link that comes up on Google: National Desexing Network. That was an odd moment of cognitive dissonance right there.)

(They're talking about pets.)

The essay I'm working on at the moment for uni is about the anglicisation of Scottish culture after the Act of Union in 1707. The odd thing is, the annihilation of Scottish culture happened in such a way that not only did a number of Scots actively participate in it - my lowland Scottish, incredibly knowledgeable and intelligent and analytical history Ph.D. lecturer didn't think it happened to anyone but the Highlanders. I'm fairly sure I've actually convinced him otherwise, in our discussions of the subject. (Which is both awesome and intimidating. When you know that your lecturer is looking forward to reading your essay because he thinks he might learn something from it... no pressure or anything.)

Anyway, one of the most important ways this happens, I'm finding, is with language. If you control the language, get to define what's "correct" and what's not, and in doing so can disconnect a people from their cultural heritage, so that what came before is incomprehensible to them, you've just about already won.

Which leads me to wonder about something I'd never consciously thought of before.

Why does just about every notable Native American leader I've heard of have a name in English?

Sitting Bull. Black Kettle. "King Phillip". Big Foot.

Something there is very wrong.

(This may become a post all its own when I really get into collating my essay data.)

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From: ceri Date: May 11th, 2009 03:35 am (UTC) (Link)

I'm enthusiastically curious and hope you do gather up your data into a post. Please please.

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From: skywardprodigal Date: May 12th, 2009 01:48 pm (UTC) (Link)

People like the native mods of deadbro use it.

Naming has power. And it's a way of imposing their cultural standards on many.

I hope your essay writing goes phenomenally.

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From: smillaraaq.livejournal.com Date: May 13th, 2009 03:17 pm (UTC) (Link)

Hmm, I was wondering why I keep seeing NDN crop up for Native Americans.

Try pronouncing the letters out loud and see what they sound like, and all should be made clear. ;)

It's slang of the sort that works primarily on the textual level, since it obviously sounds the same as one of the usual terms when spoken out loud; so you'll see it used a fair bit online as something of an in-group marker, with the happy side effect for folks who recognize it of somewhat averting the confusion that can be caused due to the namespace collision with people-from-India. Usage is probably heavier among younger wired folks, as it follows formation patterns similar to 133tspeak, IM/texting shorthand, and lots of other forms of online slang; note also the parallel to the use of "AZN" for Asian. I don't know just how far back its usage goes but in my experience it really started exploding in native web boards, mailing lists and Usenet groups like alt.native and soc.culture.native in the late 1990s.

- with regards from another one of those educated, articulate, SF-reading, computer-usin' NDNs whose mere existence seem to make LMB's poor boggled head explodiate. And a raving Saiyuki fangirl to boot, so much love for the Goku icon, BTW! ^_^

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From: sami Date: May 14th, 2009 12:42 am (UTC) (Link)

Oh, I'd picked up on the pronunciation aspect - one of my little quirks is that I:

- pronounce things in my head to see if they parse like a word
- scan any organisation name to see if the acronym makes a word (this may be a product of reading Retief books as a child)
- always try to find out if something is an acronym, in case it is and there's something I'm REALLY MISSING if I don't.

That makes sense, it does, and it has the advantage of making me much less uncomfortable than "Indian" does. (Because in Australia, the perception is that "Indian" is kind of racist, and also confusing, because Indians come from India, and that "Injun" is to "Native American" as "Abbo" is to "Indigenous Australian". e.g. really damn racist. And I'm learning that American perceptions have shifted since Australia redefined its terms, but I'm not sure entirely what's correct now.)

Although I'm not sure I'd call it quite parallel to AZN, because - again - the experience I have with AZN here is that it's not actually a good term... AZN is a term used largely by thugs appropriating the most unpleasant, caricatured elements of hiphop culture, whereas Asians are the people I see around every day. (Who, individually, are more likely to identify as "Singaporean" or "Japanese" or "Chinese", but are also under the umbrella term, etc. Sort of like being Belgian vs being European.)

(Of course, the "European" thing can get terribly complicated when you are talking about people from the British Isles, but those arguments border on formulaic by now.)

Man, language around race gets complicated when you factor in regional/cultural differences. The guy from stuffblackpeoplehate.com, who's black/Indian, uses Indian and distinguishes by "dot" or "feather" but that seems so very, very strongly to me to be the kind of thing you can only do if you actually fall into one of those categories.

Thanks for your comment - it's always nice to hear from mythical creatures like educated, computer-literate genre-reading man I was going to finish this sentence but I seem to have had an aneurysm. It's so BOGGLING that people who aren't white have come into existence since the Internet was invented! I'll just have to go away and think about how awesome Saiyuki is instead.

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From: smillaraaq.livejournal.com Date: May 14th, 2009 05:27 am (UTC) (Link)

Because in Australia, the perception is that "Indian" is kind of racist, and also confusing, because Indians come from India, and that "Injun" is to "Native American" as "Abbo" is to "Indigenous Australian". e.g. really damn racist. And I'm learning that American perceptions have shifted since Australia redefined its terms, but I'm not sure entirely what's correct now.

It's not just you folks in Australia: even in the U.S., a lot of non-Indian people have somehow gotten the idea that "Native American" is now the overwhelmingly preferred, polite modern term and "Indian" is somehow seen as being outdated and offensive like "Oriental" or "Negro". I've seen remarks to that effect cropping up two or three times just in recent MammothFail discussions, and I'm not even *trying* to follow each and every link. But while it definitely seems to be the preferred term in some venues like academia, and amongst well-meaning non-native folks who want to show willing, actual usage and preferences amongst native folks is a lot more varied. This article sums it up pretty neatly: http://www.infoplease.com/spot/aihmterms.html. While the survey mentioned there is more than ten years old, so far as anecdata goes the patterns of mixed usage, lack of strong preferences and offense not commonly being taken at either of those general terms is very much in line with my own observations (and my own usage, for that matter -- I'll use either one, and a range of other slangier terms, depending on the situation and audience, but "Indian" is definitely the more comfortable default of those two for me. But I'm not at all bothered by being called NA instead, especially since I know a lot of the people using it are doing so precisely because they're trying to be polite and respectful.)

Although I'm not sure I'd call it quite parallel to AZN, because - again - the experience I have with AZN here is that it's not actually a good term... AZN is a term used largely by thugs appropriating the most unpleasant, caricatured elements of hiphop culture, whereas Asians are the people I see around every day.

*nods* Countries divided by a common language, etc. -- the main impression I have of the folks in the US using that formation is that they're mostly on the younger side, leaning heavily towards the teenybopper MySpace sort of demographic. (And probably from the mainland, because I grew up in Hawai'i where the Asian population is vastly larger than in most parts of the mainland U.S., and the cultural zeitgesit around identity was very different. I'm guessing there's probably less of a deep sense of need to form pan-ethnic identities as a form of solidarity amongst tiny minorities in a place where you are essentially closer to the majority yourself.) "NDN" I suspect first took root amongst a similarly young-and-wired crowd, but it seems to have spread a lot further past that initial youthful demographic than "AZN" has. (And hip-hop is HUGE in Indian Country too, along with plenty of intra-POC skanky race issues about "acting black", but oh man that could be grounds for another sprawlingly huge rant entirely...)

I'll just have to go away and think about how awesome Saiyuki is instead.

Always an excellent choice, especially as an antidote to headache-inducing fail! Too bad this OpenID thingy won't let me use my huge selection of LJ Saiyuki icons, which I of course lovingly and traditionally hand-crafted with trade beads, buckskin, and quills since graphics editing programs would be far too much for my savage brain to cope with. ^_~

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From: sami Date: May 14th, 2009 05:45 am (UTC) (Link)

Are you one of the people who's wanting a DWth account and still waiting on a code? 'cause you know, I could supply. (I have codes, because I don't do the General Offer thing - I have a couple in hand, and I reserve them to offer to specific people.)

I have a sort of complicated reaction to the issues around non-black people and hiphop, because on the one hand, yes, cultural product, on the other hand, I'm very much in favour of cultural appreciation by and for everyone. I think there's an important distinction between appreciation and appropriation, and I think that, where due respect is paid (and due respect includes recognition for marginalised cultures, and efforts towards sociopolitical equality, etc), the world would be a better place if we appreciated everyone's cultural variations.

I would love to see Chinese New Year being celebrated as a Major Event in the same way the Gregorian New Year is. I want the Hindu festivals happening where everyone can see them. That kind of thing - I know Christianity isn't the world's only religion, but I don't want Christmas to stop being a widely-shared celebration, I just want everyone else's festivals recognised too. (Bonus positive: If there were more events and festivals throughout the year, we might be able to cut down on the duration of the Christmas season, which currently seems to start in October, and the degree of commercialisation, which is obscene. And Easter, which is, technically, the holiest event in my religion, could be left to its mix of solemnity and joy if everyone could just be celebrating Golden Week instead.)

So it's not like I want cultural prohibition on stuff - it's more that where hiphop has problems with glorifying violence and misogyny, which are things of which I disapprove sufficiently that I don't care if it's cultural, it's damaging - that's the aspect that "AZNs" embrace, in my experience.

To me, it seems like Asian people are all over the place, here, but I sometimes forget that that's not the case in all areas - it's just that I go to university, where there are a *lot* of Asians (we have a lot of international students from southeast Asia), and so it's just that *my* environment is so plentiful in people of other cultures, living in harmony because we're all students at a place that has an anti-racist campus culture and because being overtly racist is one of the few things that could get you permanently expelled from the university. (Mere course failure merely gets you excluded for a given number of years. My university is quite hard to get into, but once you're in, it's hard to get kicked out permanently.)

Time for Saiyuki essay work. *sigh*

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From: smillaraaq.livejournal.com Date: May 14th, 2009 07:37 am (UTC) (Link)

Oh, gosh, I'm honored by the code offer, but I honestly don't know if I should take you up on it -- I've not really thought about DW in any serious way because it's a rare day I can even pretend I'm managing to make an effort of keeping up with LJ (I'm a crusty old Usenet/BBS geek who still finds web-based fora deeply annoying in a lot of ways). So I'd feel kind of bad about snagging a code and space that I'm not likely to *do* much with, beyond adding a little extra convenience and shiny icons to rare flurries of comments, when there are lots of other people with their nose pressed up against the virtual window glass hoping to get in...

Anyway, the thing with NDN hip-hop, and let's see if I can manage to condense this into something not too unwieldy when this is a subject that's very rant-inducing, isn't so much about outside accusations of cultural appropriation (because frankly, NDN rap isn't even on the map for most non-native folks). And while there are some indeed some native musicians who are emulating the worst materialism-and-misogyny aspects of the most stereotypical sort of gangsta rap, and I would heartily get behind them being called out on putting forth such negative messages that are incompatible with traditional cultural values...but all too often, the criticism is couched in terms of "acting black", as if the negativity of one subgroup of the hiphop scene was emblematic of black culture as a whole; and what's even more troubling, those same sorts of accusations of "trying to be black" are aimed at native rappers who are putting forward positive, culturally and politically aware messages in their music. I've seen this crop up over and over again for years, and it's troubling; all the more so when held up against the comparative rarity in which folks playing, say, country-western, or punk, or indy rock, get accused of "acting white", or blues players getting similar accusations of "trying to be black". Some of it's likely to be generational, I'm sure, blues and rock and country have all established themselves while hip-hop is still a young enough genre to be getting a lot of fogeyish "dang kids, that's not *real* music!" disdain; but it's still an ugly pattern of too many native folks speaking as if blackness were something intrinsically bad in and of itself, or equivalent to the most negative rap stereotypes.

This bothers me on so many levels -- there's a long history of close, positive black/Indian relations that's largely been erased from the history books and public consciousness, and some really recent ugly money-and-power-grubbing political attempts at disenfranchising some of the few formally recognized black subpopulations of particular native nations, and it's all just really discouraging and rage-making to see how the racist attitudes of the dominant culture, and the historic divide-and-conquer tactics and historical erasures used against us, are playing out here. And it's not just a distant, abstract rage at injustice, because that doubly invisible black NDN population includes folks I'm honored to call friends, and artists I've deeply admired for years; so hearing about the snubs and prejudice they've encountered from folks who should welcome them as family just gets me furious on both the personal and political levels. And the sort of phrasing that crops up from other Indians in the "they're trying to be black" sneers at native rappers reeks of that sort of ugly attitude.

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From: sami Date: May 14th, 2009 07:53 am (UTC) (Link)

That makes a lot of sense, re: NDN hip-hop. I've seen some of the stuff with disenfranchising some of the black subpopulations, and... yeah, basically. It's kind of horrifying that racism against blacks is so endemic that it's becoming pervasive in *other* minority groups. Like, wow, the fight's getting that much harder.

As for DW code stuff - it's up to you. I like talking to you, so I'd like to see you on DW; you get icons and shinies, and it's easier to interact with other DW people than it is on LJ. (I kind of love DW more, myself, not least because it's got a very extended-family feel right now - everyone you see, you know someone who knows someone who knows them, at worst. And also because I recently had some nastiness from trolls who are acquaintances that has kind of tainted my own LJ for me for the time being.) The handy thing about DW vs LJ is... you don't have to make a choice, since crossposting is so easy. *g*

On the other hand, openID works pretty well here, so!

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From: smillaraaq.livejournal.com Date: May 15th, 2009 06:03 pm (UTC) (Link)

Yeah...and it's all further complicated because the continent's so big and the regional histories are all very different, so you can have folks coming from other parts of the US or Canada sometimes being honestly unaware of the depth of history of black/native interactions in the Southeast in particular -- it's not part of their own personal histories, and it's so often ignored in the mainstream texts and media that it's terribly easy to remain unaware of it. And even amongst urban Indians, the situation can vary immensely from city to city; there are some places where you hear of a lot of friendly cross-cultural interaction, and others where the de facto geographic segregation is such that the black and native communities rarely cross paths, and have absorbed a lot of the majority culture's messages about each other...

(And ha, lookee what I found I can do just poking about on the OpenID side! It seems I don't need to steal one of your codes just for the sake of having icon shininess after all. They only give you six for an OpenID account, but considering how much I'm not paying for it, that's more than generous IMO...)

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From: sami Date: May 16th, 2009 06:19 am (UTC) (Link)

Yeah, that would make it hideously complicated to try and deal with.

(PS: You can also, on Dreamwidth, set up a reading page of your own, as well. Pretty much all you can't do is post.)

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From: sami Date: May 11th, 2009 12:14 am (UTC) (Link)

But some of them are really articulate.

That word is so odd. I rarely see it used in a non-academic sense (e.g. I have been described as articulate, because I'm good at expressing complex arguments, etc), except when either being racist (describing, say, Native Americans as articulate, with the implication that it's surprising they could be articulate at all, SINCE THEY'RE SAVAGES AND ALL), or describing Obama - which, at least for most of the cases I've seen, carries the rider "... for an American president" rather than "... for a black man."

It's so rarely an actual compliment. (It's not even one for Obama - he is exceptionally well-spoken, it's true - probably the best speaker on the world stage right now - but given his immediate predecessor, the bar for "articulate", it is not high.)

... Oh look, it's time for my ADHD meds. *cough*

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From: smillaraaq.livejournal.com Date: May 15th, 2009 10:51 pm (UTC) (Link)

Ohhhh yes. Educated and articulate, if only she'd included "clean" we could have had a trifecta. *rolls eyes*

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