Moments of Permanence - On differences in oppression, derailment, and the hierarchies of hurt

From: ataxi.livejournal.com Date: April 7th, 2009 02:20 am (UTC) Re: ... exhale ... (Link)

Yeah, I know. You're correct of course. And as it turns out it has shaken up the system. Now I await some great SF&F books with appropriate representations of POC: after all, we're in this for the books aren't we?

"To you we must be the kid in that story with the shovel, looking for the pony."

I wish I knew that story -- it's going to take a leap of imagination I don't have in me at this moment to work out what a kid with a shovel would want with a pony.

Got to get back to work I'm afraid -- thanks for being a moderate voice.

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From: handyhunter.livejournal.com Date: April 8th, 2009 03:43 pm (UTC) Re: ... exhale ... (Link)

after all, we're in this for the books aren't we?

Funny, I thought "we" were in it for the non-white people.

[here via rydra_wong's linkspam.]

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From: tevriel.livejournal.com Date: April 8th, 2009 11:48 pm (UTC) Re: ... exhale ... (Link)

Where "this" is defined as science fiction and fantasy print fandom, - no, we're in this for the books. Improving the representation of non-white people is improving the books. Because if the books don't reflect the wealth of human experience, if the books don't offer anything to people who don't fit a narrow band of cultural background, then the books aren't good enough, which is the problem.

Being in sf/f for the non-white people would be a bit odd.

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From: ataxi.livejournal.com Date: April 9th, 2009 01:35 am (UTC) Re: ... exhale ... (Link)

I can't see how anyone could expect do anything of political value "within" sf&f without some personal investment in the literature. But you can stop your cast of "protection from normal missiles" now: the furore appears to have largely died down.

(Although I wouldn't be surprised if there was a large group of anti-derailing people somewhere on the net right now pointing and laughing at me. If they are, they're also at least doing me a favour by not telling me they're doing it.)

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From: tevriel.livejournal.com Date: April 9th, 2009 03:41 am (UTC) Re: ... exhale ... (Link)

Heh. You know I value you tremendously, but that one wasn't protection of you - I get irritated when people are wilfully misunderstanding things anywhere, ever, at all, let alone in my journal, and so will always be highly likely to slap it down.

Because I have standards.

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From: ataxi.livejournal.com Date: April 9th, 2009 12:57 am (UTC) Re: ... exhale ... (Link)

...

Well, I care about the books.

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From: tevriel.livejournal.com Date: April 8th, 2009 11:50 pm (UTC) Re: ... exhale ... (Link)

There are a number of versions, all with the same punchline. Many involve an optimist kid and a pessimist kid, but the important part is the optimist kid: Most versions involve the kid at Christmas or his birthday finding a pile of crap. (Which always seems like an incredibly bizarre setup to me.) Others involve a researcher. (Again...) Etc.

The important point is that the kid excitedly grabs a shovel, and starts digging through the manure, and exclaims: With all this manure, there must be a pony around here somewhere!

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From: lady-ganesh.livejournal.com Date: April 11th, 2009 12:31 am (UTC) Re: ... exhale ... (Link)

What you said, yes.

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