Moments of Permanence - On differences in oppression, derailment, and the hierarchies of hurt

From: lady-ganesh.livejournal.com Date: April 7th, 2009 01:53 am (UTC) Re: ... exhale ... (Link)

Or perhaps I just don't think reading RaceFail would be the best use of my time ...

And yeah, that's fine. But to say that everything's a giant pile of shit and you have no interest is a bit different (which I realize you understand). To you we must be the kid in that story with the shovel, looking for the pony.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that there are conflicts of interest in every forum. If this was all done on Miss Mama's Ideal Blog, we'd run into many of the same problems, people trying to game the refs, etc. And that the very chaotic nature of the beast is one of the reasons anything good's happened at all.

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From: ataxi.livejournal.com Date: April 7th, 2009 02:20 am (UTC) Re: ... exhale ... (Link)

Yeah, I know. You're correct of course. And as it turns out it has shaken up the system. Now I await some great SF&F books with appropriate representations of POC: after all, we're in this for the books aren't we?

"To you we must be the kid in that story with the shovel, looking for the pony."

I wish I knew that story -- it's going to take a leap of imagination I don't have in me at this moment to work out what a kid with a shovel would want with a pony.

Got to get back to work I'm afraid -- thanks for being a moderate voice.

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From: handyhunter.livejournal.com Date: April 8th, 2009 03:43 pm (UTC) Re: ... exhale ... (Link)

after all, we're in this for the books aren't we?

Funny, I thought "we" were in it for the non-white people.

[here via rydra_wong's linkspam.]

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From: tevriel.livejournal.com Date: April 8th, 2009 11:48 pm (UTC) Re: ... exhale ... (Link)

Where "this" is defined as science fiction and fantasy print fandom, - no, we're in this for the books. Improving the representation of non-white people is improving the books. Because if the books don't reflect the wealth of human experience, if the books don't offer anything to people who don't fit a narrow band of cultural background, then the books aren't good enough, which is the problem.

Being in sf/f for the non-white people would be a bit odd.

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From: ataxi.livejournal.com Date: April 9th, 2009 01:35 am (UTC) Re: ... exhale ... (Link)

I can't see how anyone could expect do anything of political value "within" sf&f without some personal investment in the literature. But you can stop your cast of "protection from normal missiles" now: the furore appears to have largely died down.

(Although I wouldn't be surprised if there was a large group of anti-derailing people somewhere on the net right now pointing and laughing at me. If they are, they're also at least doing me a favour by not telling me they're doing it.)

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From: tevriel.livejournal.com Date: April 9th, 2009 03:41 am (UTC) Re: ... exhale ... (Link)

Heh. You know I value you tremendously, but that one wasn't protection of you - I get irritated when people are wilfully misunderstanding things anywhere, ever, at all, let alone in my journal, and so will always be highly likely to slap it down.

Because I have standards.

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From: ataxi.livejournal.com Date: April 9th, 2009 12:57 am (UTC) Re: ... exhale ... (Link)

...

Well, I care about the books.

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From: tevriel.livejournal.com Date: April 8th, 2009 11:50 pm (UTC) Re: ... exhale ... (Link)

There are a number of versions, all with the same punchline. Many involve an optimist kid and a pessimist kid, but the important part is the optimist kid: Most versions involve the kid at Christmas or his birthday finding a pile of crap. (Which always seems like an incredibly bizarre setup to me.) Others involve a researcher. (Again...) Etc.

The important point is that the kid excitedly grabs a shovel, and starts digging through the manure, and exclaims: With all this manure, there must be a pony around here somewhere!

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From: lady-ganesh.livejournal.com Date: April 11th, 2009 12:31 am (UTC) Re: ... exhale ... (Link)

What you said, yes.

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