Moments of Permanence - On differences in oppression, derailment, and the hierarchies of hurt

From: tevriel.livejournal.com Date: April 6th, 2009 05:56 am (UTC) Re: ... deep breath ... (Link)

*laughs for reasons you cannot know*

I love him dearly, but he is fully capable of declaring that a book he dislikes is crap even if other people like it, and saying, as an act of rhetorical hyperbole, that anyone who does like it is an idiot.

Then again, I'm capable of the same thing, and may have gone to further rhetorical extremes against The da Vinci Code. But - and the analogy still stands - making that statement in the company of friends doesn't necessarily mean total sincerity. That doesn't mean someone nearby won't be offended by it or that they'd be wrong to be offended, even though he and his intended audience would know he was kidding... analogies can be fun.

(Also, seriously, this LJ is a wildlife sanctuary for teal deer. Say as much as you want.)

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

From: (Anonymous) Date: April 6th, 2009 06:16 am (UTC) Re: ... deep breath ... (Link)

You're his friend so obviously you know him better than I do, but this didn't sound like rhetorical hyperbole to me.

There's a difference between saying, "How could anyone like Lord of the Rings? Nothing happens for the first two hundred pages," and "How could anyone like Lord of the Rings? Obviously they're too stupid to understand what good writing is." The first example is about the book, while the second is about the readers. Most of Ataxi's comments have been focused on the people involved in Racefail, usually on their negative motives, rather than on its actual content. As a general rule, I don't like sweeping generalizations, especially when they're used to dismiss a huge, months long series of discussions.

- Amanda (this has been fun, but I'm going to bed now)

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

From: tevriel.livejournal.com Date: April 6th, 2009 10:02 am (UTC) Re: ... deep breath ... (Link)

Indeed, but it's still rhetorical hyperbole, it's just a lot more hyperbolic and a lot less well-considered. As he's now realised and acknowledged, his sentiments were ill-considered.

This is the line one has to tread, and Certain People (hi, Elizabeth Bear) didn't even realise was there: it's possible to love your friends, and defend their basic good nature to others, and, in spaces you control, guard rigidly the terms in which people confront them about sub-optimal behaviour, without defending or endorsing the behaviour itself.

There was a strong thread of cliquish behaviour from the EBear And Friends side of RaceFail in which any criticism, on any basis, of any one of their in-group was savagely retaliated against. This causes issues.

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)

From: ataxi.livejournal.com Date: April 6th, 2009 02:45 pm (UTC) Re: ... deep breath ... (Link)

To be honest I don't think I have yet gotten around to backing off as far as I probably should. Oh well.

(Reply) (Parent)