Moments of Permanence - A tiny, tiny mini-rant

From: maevele Date: May 21st, 2009 08:38 pm (UTC) (Link)

and i was pretty sure it was deliberately attempting to make it a space where white folk take responsibility for educating other yts on the shit that PoC have had to say too many damn times already.

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From: sami Date: May 22nd, 2009 12:43 am (UTC) (Link)

Quite.

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From: willow Date: May 21st, 2009 11:29 pm (UTC) (Link)

Oh, the cries of the mewling infants, demanding nappy changes to the all new anti-racism cloth diapers that somehow eat poop.

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From: sami Date: May 22nd, 2009 01:06 am (UTC) tl;dr for everything past the first two paragraphs: Starship Troopers GEEK SQUEE (Link)

Oh, but Willow, don't you understand - if you don't educate the clueless white people, you're just as bad as they are, because, um...

You know, I can't find an explanation for that EBearish "bad behaviour on both sides" tone-y argument that isn't fucking racist. Odd, that.

In less aggravating topics: OH, DUDE, I just caught up on your blog, and DUDE DUDE I had no idea there was a CGI series of Starship Troopers that wasn't made of fail like the movie. (Which I haven't seen and refuse to see because I could tell from the trailer that the things that made me love the book are SO not in the movie.) Sami WANT.

I also suddenly want to reread the book. Heinlein's politics suck as a final objective and he is the king of the straw men but that's not the POINT. It's still an interesting thought exercise, politically, as well as a cool story (imo).

Added to that, I think it was the first novel I ever read with a seriously multi-ethnic cast of characters. He didn't do that anywhere near perfectly, but it's there - a range of names, a range of *people*. Combat training that included both karate and savate. And Rico's native language is *Tagalog* - I can't think of a single other mainstream novel where the main character is Filipino, even if that's a surprise twist at the end. Which I suspect was deliberate - the reader is supposed to identify all the way through with Johnnie, and almost on the last damn page Heinlein tells us that the guy we've been identifying with all this time ain't white. When you think about his target audience of sf geeks, that's a really interesting choice.

Oh, and his pilot friend, Carmen Ibanez? The girl who's the brilliant mathematician and totally hotshot pilot potential, who's smarter than anyone else you meet in the whole book and lovely in looks and personality as well?

She did a lot to help me forgive Heinlein for the hideously awful female characters in Space Cadet. (Which is one of his juvenile-audience books that tells you that it's important to be honest, and to try hard, and to be loyal to your friends and to your ideals... but that girls are kind of stupid and can't possibly understand anything involving space or maths and they're really over-emotional and silly, too. That pissed me off.) Because Carmen is awesome, and a woman - but you don't have to think that she's Too Too Perfect, because it's from Johnnie's perspective, so it's not that she's a flawless person, it's that she's his friend, who he knows is brilliant, and so that's what he tells you. She's no doubt a full and complex person, but he's not telling you her story, he's telling you his, and in his story, she's just a friend of his he thinks is pretty amazing.

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From: willow Date: May 22nd, 2009 01:14 am (UTC) Ahem: Roughnecks - I Pitch You Some Woo (Link)

Watch It. W.a.t.c.h I.t.

Then BUY it!

I do not promote the 3 disc all ep package because it has no commentary and the commentary on both the story creation, arc and bug decisions and the technical stuff is SO worth it. (Especially to get how the team had planned to wrap things up for a proper ending)

Carmen continues to be awesome! And there is Dizzy!

The series will diverge enough from the book that you will notice since you didn't see the movie. To me, it redeemed the best parts of the movie (Carl, Dizzy as a girl, uhm - I think that might be it).

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From: sami Date: May 22nd, 2009 01:22 am (UTC) Re: Ahem: Roughnecks - I Pitch You Some Woo (Link)

I shall watch. :D And recommendations about the commentary are noted.

I note that despite divergence I don't see you recommending I *do* watch the movie. *g* I don't think Dizzy is going to be too disconcerting, mind you, since Dizzy Flores is only in the book for about five seconds.

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From: willow Date: May 22nd, 2009 01:31 am (UTC) Re: Ahem: Roughnecks - I Pitch You Some Woo (Link)

Actually if I were to recc something from the movie franchise to you - I'd recc Hero Of The Federation. Mostly because costuming aside, I can see it existing in the CGI/Roughnecks Universe. Except for a bit at the end which is pure Paul Verhoeven.

ETA: It doesn't have the Roughnecks ethos, btw. And if you were to watch it, I'd suggest watching Roughnecks first. It would help you see parallels and possibilities. Otherwise it's just a sci-fi space opera movie with evil alien bugs.

Edited 2009-05-22 01:35 am (UTC)

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From: lady_ganesh Date: May 23rd, 2009 03:10 am (UTC) Re: tl;dr for everything past the first two paragraphs: Starship Troopers GEEK SQUEE (Link)

the reader is supposed to identify all the way through with Johnnie, and almost on the last damn page Heinlein tells us that the guy we've been identifying with all this time ain't white. When you think about his target audience of sf geeks, that's a really interesting choice.

Reminds me of the ending of the original Metroid game, and may have been created with similar intentions.

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From: sami Date: May 23rd, 2009 04:12 am (UTC) Re: tl;dr for everything past the first two paragraphs: Starship Troopers GEEK SQUEE (Link)

I haven't played the first one. So I always knew Samus was a woman. It's part of why I think Metroid is awesome.

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From: lady_ganesh Date: May 24th, 2009 01:10 am (UTC) Re: tl;dr for everything past the first two paragraphs: Starship Troopers GEEK SQUEE (Link)

My then-12-year-old husband was SHOCKED OMG. :D

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From: fifi Date: May 22nd, 2009 12:18 am (UTC) (Link)

Didn't you know that Racist & Victims of Racism are partners in an Educational Program? The first lesson is called "If You Want Me to Stop Being Racist Let Me Climb On Yr Back, Negrito, so I can Piggy-Back My Way Into Racism 101 and Show you all the Way of being showing the other Cheek or Both Cheeks, Depending." Long ass title, I know. They're wordy.

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From: sami Date: May 22nd, 2009 01:08 am (UTC) (Link)

Obviously. Because the difficult part of overcoming racism should, naturally, fall upon the victims thereof.

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From: fifi Date: May 22nd, 2009 01:15 am (UTC) (Link)

It was supposed to say "Show you all the way of being Gandhi, and showing the other cheek" but I suppose the DeeWee's comment thinger objected to Gandhi being used by racefailers.


Obviously. Because the difficult part of overcoming racism should, naturally, fall upon the victims

Obviously.

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From: sqbr Date: May 22nd, 2009 01:10 am (UTC) (Link)

Wow, I've been meaning to write EXACTLY this post for ages.

Of course, I do have a Phd, so for me the metaphor comes more literally from realising that the extreme annoyance I got from strangers assuming that the fact that I had the knowledge to explain difficult maths problems to them meant I had an obligation to do so (For free. Whenever was convenient to them(*)) was like a teeny niggle compared to how POC must feel. Since people not understanding group theory doesn't actually cause me or anyone else any real harm. Any time I find myself thinking "But this race stuff is hard! Why won't someone explain it to me?" I think "Sophie, you are being like those annoying 3P3 students only much worse" and I am suitably chastened.

(nb in case it's not clear: I am TOTALLY not saying that maths ignorance=racism. Because no. It just helped me understand racism better)

(*)Though none of them said "Well then my lack of understanding of maths is YOUR FAULT".

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From: sami Date: May 22nd, 2009 12:20 pm (UTC) (Link)

I Do Not Get that.

I can see myself asking you for maths help. But that would be on the basis that we are friends. And if it took you a lot of time, I would make you very-carefully-ingredient-assessed cookies or something. In much the same way, I'll give history/linguistics/beta services to friends, and spend as much time as necessary explaining things to friends, and so on... and get distinctly irritated when people expect the same privileges my friends get when they're not my friends.

This actually caused DRAMA in World of Warcraft, with someone in my guild getting seriously annoyed that I cheerfully handed valuable resources and thousands of gold to velithya, but wouldn't do the same for her.

I actually had to explain to her that being my friend for a number of years, including little things like sitting up with me in hospital until three in the morning when I had to be taken to emergency, that sort of stuff, means that velithya gets stuff other people don't. Especially if I hardly know them.

You wouldn't think it would be that hard to understand, but apparently, for her, it was. :rolleyes:

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From: sqbr Date: May 24th, 2009 01:08 am (UTC) (Link)

Oh, I know. Eventually I got very good at saying "I do free tutorials on Monday afternoons, if I'm not busy with first and second years I will help you then. Otherwise my tutoring rate is $30 an hour." Some of them took me up on the first offer but none took me up on the second :)

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From: smillaraaq.livejournal.com Date: May 22nd, 2009 01:18 am (UTC) (Link)

Non-white people/people of colour are not required to teach you. They have no obligation or reason to hold your hand and walk you gently through the mists of your own ignorance to the bright sunny dawn of Clue. And you are probably the five hundredth person to ask them to do so.

And if you insist on flaunting your privileged sense of entitlement by demanding free education anyway, well, don't be surprised if the lesson you get isn't the one you asked for. Getting firm, unbudging "NO"s and being subjected to scathing mockery are teaching moments too!

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From: sami Date: May 22nd, 2009 12:46 pm (UTC) (Link)

IT'S YOUR FAULT I'M A RACIST THEN, YOU EVIL POC MEANIE RACIST MEANIE

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From: smillaraaq.livejournal.com Date: May 22nd, 2009 08:43 pm (UTC) (Link)

*sheds a single perfect teardrop*

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From: sami Date: May 23rd, 2009 04:12 am (UTC) (Link)

... YOU WIN

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From: smillaraaq.livejournal.com Date: May 27th, 2009 05:07 am (UTC) (Link)

Snark is one of my favorite traditional arts. ^_~

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From: lady_ganesh Date: May 23rd, 2009 03:18 am (UTC) (Link)

Do you need/want an invite code, btw?

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From: sami Date: May 23rd, 2009 04:11 am (UTC) (Link)

I offered her one too. She said no. Because she's TOO COOL for Dreamwidth, APPARENTLY.

>.>

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From: lady_ganesh Date: May 24th, 2009 01:11 am (UTC) (Link)

We'll get her. We just need time...:D

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From: smillaraaq.livejournal.com Date: May 27th, 2009 05:07 am (UTC) (Link)

Look, I already have one journal that I almost never use; TWO gathering dust is just going to ramp up the guilt factor. Don't you understand the pressure, people will look at me like I'm a bad person if I don't use EVERY part of the buffalo blogging platform!

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From: lady_ganesh Date: May 27th, 2009 11:27 pm (UTC) (Link)

::snerk::

But the tagging system!

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From: piscinarii Date: May 22nd, 2009 04:02 pm (UTC) (Link)

So well freaking said.

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From: sami Date: May 23rd, 2009 04:29 am (UTC) (Link)

Thank you.

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From: elf Date: May 22nd, 2009 04:15 pm (UTC) (Link)

I would have some sympathy for the "PoC should teach me about racism" argument, if I didn't *always* see it in the middle of, or immediately after, a swarm of links discussing various aspects of racism.

It's not just "PoC should teach white people," which concept has some validity. On our own, there's some aspects we just can't figure out; the problem with blind spots is that you don't see them. But it's not like there's any shortage of PoC who've decided to spend their energy educating whitefolks; it's not like we lack videos and blog posts and funny-but-touching cartoons and sarcastic bingo cards and careful analyses of every point on those cards.

I don't have a problem with "I should be learning about racism from the people most affected by it." The problem kicks in with, "...and this one right here in front of me, in my journal, is the one who should teach me." Because that's usually tied into "I don't want to read stuff from strangers, because they might not be nice to me and tell me I'm basically a good person even if I have some skeevy race issues. In fact, I don't want to think I have any skeevy race issues; I want someone to tell me I just need to polish my vocabulary a little bit and then I'll be wonderful & enlightened."

Racism 101 does not need people with a Ph.D. in Racism And Associated Crap. It needs high school teachers.

I'll posit it needs middle school teachers... people who are willing to go over the same basic shit, again and again, even with the same students who obviously weren't paying attention the first time. "Teachers" who know that they're sliding over some of the nuances because those are too subtle to be recognized, who have to keep saying, "oh, and there's more, and we can discuss that when you're ready for it."

High school students are presumed to have some competence in their subjects; middle school students are still absorbing the idea "this is a subject worthy of study."

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From: sami Date: May 22nd, 2009 04:21 pm (UTC) (Link)

I get what you're saying, but your argument doesn't work at all for me, for one simple reason:

We don't have "middle school" in my country.

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From: smillaraaq.livejournal.com Date: May 22nd, 2009 08:49 pm (UTC) (Link)

Heh, interesting...I've been chattering online with Aussies for more than a decade, but somehow this never came up! So your first two years of high school would be the equivalent of USAn middle/intermediate school, if Wikipedia got that right...do grade-level names (senior, junior, sophomore, freshman) get used at all?

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From: sami Date: May 23rd, 2009 04:14 am (UTC) (Link)

Not for school students, no. High school starts at year 8, and when you're in your final year you're... a year twelve.

First-year students at most Australian universities are called freshers, or something similar, but once you get past fresherdom there aren't terms for years thereafter either.

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From: lauredhel Date: May 23rd, 2009 04:32 am (UTC) (Link)

There are "junior high schools", though, those that run from year 8 to year 10, and "senior high schools", which do the full five years. I don't think that's just a state thing, is it?

Some schools are actually starting to move toward a formal Middle School structure, or even toward four schools (MLC and Shenton College are local examples).

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From: sami Date: May 23rd, 2009 06:09 am (UTC) (Link)

I've never heard of junior high schools in WA.

And MLC, at least, I'm not sure about Shenton, is all years. I know they have subdivisions within the years, but it's still the same school...

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From: lauredhel Date: May 23rd, 2009 06:17 am (UTC) (Link)

Click through the links to see the way MLC talks about it - explicitly as "four schools". Even back in the seventies, John XXIII was divided into three or four schools, had four separate campuses too. (I think that's changed now with the switch to the new campus).

I can't find an exhaustive listing of JHSs in WA, but Schools Online does show a few at a quick glance - Beverley, Bruce Rock, Cunderdin, Darkan, Donnybrook, just on a quick click through the first few.

Edited 2009-05-23 06:29 am (UTC)

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From: sqbr Date: May 24th, 2009 01:00 am (UTC) (Link)

PLC has a middle school, they introduced back in about 1996. I remember, because I was in year 12 and had been looking forward to my special year 12 blue tie for four years, and then ALL the senior school students got them. (Ah, the priorities of teenagers..)

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From: smillaraaq.livejournal.com Date: May 27th, 2009 05:04 am (UTC) (Link)

Interesting! I am endlessly fascinated by all this sort of countries-separated-by-a-common-language stuff. :)

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