Moments of Permanence - On differences in oppression, derailment, and the hierarchies of hurt

From: ataxi.livejournal.com Date: April 6th, 2009 05:33 am (UTC) (Link)

No one has the luxury of ignoring oppression. I firmly believe that. Economic and political inequalities affect us all negatively. I find it a bit wearying that you draw a straight line between everything I've said and that viewpoint, of course, but you get a lot of mileage that way. There is no point in me slapping down my credentials or bona fides, nor will it convince you of my politics on that score.

That doesn't change my opinion that RaceFail is almost entirely rubbish.

There's a reason they call it "RaceFail" isn't there? It's because of the amount of stupid in it.

As you concede, there's plenty of attention-seeking and idiocy in the mix, in fact all you're willing to claim for it so far is that the racist and thoughtless idiocy has provided a venue for many marginalised people to defend themselves articulately. Great. There's also been a handy punishment meted out to various public figures in SF&F, though why that would have long term benefits remains to be seen (I doubt it's ultimately good for anyone in the SF&F world to win the "Congratulations! Making Light hates and fears you now!" Award).

From tevriel's link here though I can see that at the very least, the magnitude of the disturbance has raised awareness levels amongst convention organisers and small press publishers. Which is actually a good thing. So I'm forced on that evidence to retract my view to the extent of those positive changes. And after that, I'm forced to admit that the question of just how much of RaceFail was pointless and how much wasn't becomes one of degree. Which basically puts me in the same spot as Scalzi's backdown per tevriel's other comment.

As for the rest of our interactions ... I'm happy enough not going there. Neither of us has endeared themselves to the other: quel dommage / tant pis. Now, as I've discovered I can't get this fucking train off its rails -- and it looked like it'd be so easy! -- so I'm off.

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From: (Anonymous) Date: April 6th, 2009 06:34 am (UTC) (Link)

Are you saying that the only way a discussion of racism (or any other prejudice) can be productive is if it Changes the World? That, unless the face of SFF was in some way altered, this whole discussion would have been pointless? Even though people got to say things that they've been thinking and were, until that point, unable to talk about. And even though other people were,as a result, beginning to understand White Priviledge and how it works. Just look at Rydra_wong's most recent post. One woman writes about the commercialization of Hinduism and another woman, one who had been using the name Kali Ma on the internet, realized why it was offensive, apoligized and changed her behavior. Do you think that's pointless, just because it's small?

If so, I guess I understand your point of view a little better: Racefail has been largely a bunch of people expressing their opinions and sharing their reactions. If you don't think that matters, then of course you won't think that Racefail matters.

- Amanda

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From: ataxi.livejournal.com Date: April 6th, 2009 07:57 am (UTC) (Link)

"Are you saying that the only way a discussion of racism (or any other prejudice) can be productive is if it Changes the World?"

No. I'm talking about degree of productivity as well as the existence thereof, I'm not restricting outcomes to those that require Special Capitalisation, and I'm not ignoring the opportunity cost of having scores of intelligent communicators in the SF&F community, from activists to writers to publishers and academics engaged in the rough equivalent of an old-school Usenet flamewar held in multiple venues simultaneously either, with maybe a little short of half of them leaving in a disaffected rage.

"If so, I guess I understand your point of view a little better: Racefail has been largely a bunch of people expressing their opinions and sharing their reactions. If you don't think that matters, then of course you won't think that Racefail matters."

At the risk of sounding condescending ... oh never mind. But shoot down as many things that aren't my view as you like. Clearly whenever a group of people get together in a space and express their opinions and share their reactions, that has great value regardless of what is said, how it's said, who says it, what the outcomes are, how they're transmitted outside the group, and what opportunities for communication and positive change are lost as a result of the way the "expression of opinions and sharing of reactions" progresses, and to what end.

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From: (Anonymous) Date: April 6th, 2009 06:54 am (UTC) (Link)

Oh, and everyone who is not in the oppressed group has the luxury of ignoring oppression. If the bigotry doesn't effect you personally, there's no reason why you would even be thinking about it. That doesn't make you a bad person, nor does it mean that you don't care about bigotry. But if you've been raised with a particular prejudice, you might not even realize how or why it's problematic unless someone points it out to you.

And this sentence: < Economic and political inequalities affect us all negatively> is just wrong. The fact that, for example, a black person is given harsher sentences than a white person who committed the same crime, does not negatively effect the white defendant. In fact some forms of prejudice, particularly the economic ones, actually benefit the group in power.

Furthermore, bigotry is a lot more than economic and political inequities. In fact, I'd say that these are the external manifestations of these prejudices and should not be confused with the prejudices themselves.

At the risk of sounding condescending, I don't think you know what you're talking about. Maybe you should take advantage of the many wonderful links that will explain these things far better than I ever could.

- Amanda

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From: ataxi.livejournal.com Date: April 6th, 2009 08:15 am (UTC) (Link)

"If the bigotry doesn't affect you personally, there's no reason why you would even be thinking about it. That doesn't make you a bad person, nor does it mean that you don't care about bigotry."

Perhaps. Bigotry has systemic effects other than those that affect you "personally". Of course, bigotry, prejudice and entrenched disadvantage in my country do affect me personally. In the last few days I've had to intercede to defend a blind woman in the park from a drunken indigenous man who is forced to live there (in the park) because of the debilitating social disadvantages of his people in Australia; and I've been sexually vilified while walking my dog twice, on one occasion threatened with anal rape, because owning a poodle means I'm gay and because being gay is a terrible thing to some people. I've picked up a book in the last two days, only to learn (not that I truly suspected otherwise) that more or less everything I was taught in primary school about the history of my state was a lie. Not that these turns of affairs are emblematic or that I claim them as evidence of personal difficulty, but they're hardly great fun: I could very much do without them.

"And this sentence: <Economic and political inequalities affect us all negatively> is just wrong. The fact that, for example, a black person is given harsher sentences than a white person who committed the same crime, does not negatively effect the white defendant. In fact some forms of prejudice, particularly the economic ones, actually benefit the group in power."

The negative effects of the imprisonment rate amongst black men on wider society in the US are well documented, aren't they? Just as organised crime is a consequence of the total disenfranchisement of a social group by the ruling class: the Mafia theoretically arose in Sicily because of the brutal and corrupt nature of the government installed from northern Italy, so that the locals were compelled to build their own shadow network of governance and usury. Reckon there's anyone in Italy who'd argue that society is not still paying for that oppression?

"Furthermore, bigotry is a lot more than economic and political inequities. In fact, I'd say that these are the external manifestations of these prejudices and should not be confused with the prejudices themselves."

A confusion which I'm not suffering from simply because I didn't include the phrase "and the underlying prejudices that cause them" in the above.

I certainly don't know what I'm talking about though, and I have a lot to learn; you're right about that.

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From: popelizbet.livejournal.com Date: April 24th, 2009 02:18 pm (UTC) (Link)

From tevriel's link here though I can see that at the very least, the magnitude of the disturbance has raised awareness levels amongst convention organisers and small press publishers. Which is actually a good thing. So I'm forced on that evidence to retract my view to the extent of those positive changes. And after that, I'm forced to admit that the question of just how much of RaceFail was pointless and how much wasn't becomes one of degree.

*waves*. Hi. I'm popelizbet, and I'm late to the party. But I wanted to note that I was glad that my alternate timeline was able to do its intended work in your case, serving as a rebuttal to the "flamewar/nothing good has come of it" argument that you initially espoused. (And wondering when pingback_bot stopped working, but that's a side issue.)

More good has come of this since my timeline:
10 FOC who would otherwise have been unable to do so are going to Wiscon 33 thanks to the FOC Assistance Program sponsored by fight_derailing, with talk of a permanent program to be developed.
THIS is making serious strides despite opposition at their university.
ReMyth is giving people voices and ownership of their stories, and Verb is rocking and rolling, with its first release upcoming next month...which puts it a mere two months from first fundraising to first book.

I'm not telling you these things to go "neener, you were WRONG, sit there in your boat of wrong and BE WRONG" - you already admitted that, on the evidence, you were wrong about the extent of the good that comes from this. I'm telling you these things because they're awesome, and because your disinterest in RF09 shouldn't keep you from knowing about these later developments.

And again, thanks for reading. If ever you stop by again, comment and say hi...we're all out of rotten fruit and tomatoes, so don't worry about getting pelted. :D

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