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Previous Entry Dec. 19th, 2018 @ 07:12 pm Next Entry
Is there a nice version of: "So, hey, I don't want to bring you down if you're happy about this [online platform/service/whatever], but you should probably know they have a racism problem and you might want to take that into account before you get emotionally invested in this thing."

(Context: Goodreads is racist.)

Because... happiness is good! Enjoying things is good! But it's probably less upsetting an experience to know something's problematic before it becomes a part of your life, than to either have to extract it from your life later, or feel guilty about it, or end up disappointing people when you explain your justification for supporting the racist platform.

Or, say, have established networks and relationships that depend on the racist platform that you really truly can't bring yourself to lose so you end up unable to tear yourself away from the racist platform.

(Looking at you, Twitter.)
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From:[personal profile] cimorene
Date: December 19th, 2018 12:02 pm (UTC)
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Hi! You don't know me, but I saw this on my Network page and I haven't heard that before. I googled it, but the results were just a lot of recs and lists about racism and anti-racism on Goodreads. So I'm genuinely curious to find out about this - do you have any more information to offer about this context?
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From:[personal profile] sami
Date: December 19th, 2018 01:11 pm (UTC)
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moment for my thought of: oh yeah the network page is a thing!

Okay, so.

This was months ago and I wasn't involved because I already wasn't on Goodreads so I may miss some of the details, but:

The core Thing That Set This Off was that two speculative fiction magazines, FIYAH Literary Magazine and Anathema Magazine, both of which feature (explicitly) work by authors of colour (FIYAH is "Black speculative fiction", Anathema is "spec fic by queer POC/Indigenous/Aboriginals") had all of their issues removed from Goodreads.

There was a general reaction of Wait What from people, who noted that it was only the black magazines that were removed.

An argument ensued in which various people claimed that Goodreads doesn't list magazines (it does). They hammered the argument that Goodreads is only for books! (It isn't, people listed dozens of magazines that are on Goodreads and weren't removed.)

Someone then posted the actual rules on Goodreads... which explicitly allow magazines without ISBNs. Explicitly.

Meanwhile, assorted goodreads editors were clutching their pearls and declaring it "vile" even to suggest that someone deleting the black magazines (and only the black magazines) was in any way racist and HOW VERY DARE THEY.

Despite the fact that Goodreads have explicitly allowed colouring books and, in some circumstances, calendars.

Goodreads officially stayed very quiet through most of this... and then, when they were finally prompted to address the issue, handwaved the whole part about their rules explicitly allowing magazines and all the non-deleted non-black-oriented magazines, waved off any of the issues involved, and then pretty much threatened to ban anyone who continued to be so terribly uncivil as to suggest that the people deleting black/POC/indigenous magazines and only those could possibly be doing so for any reason other than the proper application of Goodreads policies.

You know, the policies that specifically say that magazines are in fact allowed.

And that they're not applying to magazines that are less... brown.

(They did apply it to another magazine that isn't explicitly black... but which is edited by a dude who was involved in criticism of the deletion of FIYAH and Anathema.)

I saw a lot of this discussion go down on Twitter, but that dude had a giant megathread of stuff about it here, which has links to some of the Goodreads discussions if they're still up, but I warn you also has a zillion screenshots and I cannot emphasise enough, is an extremely long thread.
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From:[personal profile] cimorene
Date: December 20th, 2018 09:48 pm (UTC)
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Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh yikes.

One of the links I did find via google was from a few years ago, someone leaving the site because she had been using it to catalog zines - apparently a large collection with multiple issues, decades involved I think? - and had them all deleted without warning. She checked the rules, found they were allowed, figured it was a glitch, re-entered them all painstakingly and had them all deleted without warning a second time. She sent messages to the site/support and got no response at all, so she quit.

Aside from the racist element, this sounds pretty similar... so I wonder if their policy is that their staff are free to delete stuff without ISBN whenever they feel like it.
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From:[personal profile] sami
Date: December 22nd, 2018 05:08 am (UTC)
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At the very least they do seem to be unresponsive to abuses of power by staff. Which means that some of their staff acting on racist motives becomes a structural racism problem.

One bad apple, and all that. (These days it seems like some people think reference to bad apples means that the whole thing isn't a big deal, which is weird to me, because can rot the whole barrel is the point.)
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From:[personal profile] cimorene
Date: December 22nd, 2018 10:15 am (UTC)
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Oh, yeah, their response to the concerns is the real issue here. In the first case, it was just being a garbage org, but in the racism case, it was actually racist. And much worse than just having an unclear and unequal policy, no training requirements, and no concern for making their enforcement consistent (let alone reasonable or fair). Reading through that thread, though, I definitely got the impression none of the people at GR either (a) took the issue seriously or (b) even briefly entertained the possibility that racism could be present or that their poorly-behaved volunteer squad were anything but in the right. That's a fundamental problem in their company and I bet they have plenty more abuse and other problems as a result.
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From:[personal profile] fred_mouse
Date: December 20th, 2018 01:39 pm (UTC)
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argh. at this point, I'm at the so entrenched I'm going to stay there and feel guilty for some amount of time. because I have no idea how I can replace it. but maybe with some thinking I'll work out an alternative that works for me.

argh.
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From:[personal profile] sami
Date: December 22nd, 2018 05:05 am (UTC)
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This is why I wanted to prevent the other person from getting emotionally invested!
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From:[personal profile] fred_mouse
Date: December 22nd, 2018 02:32 pm (UTC)
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And I commend you for it!
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