Moments of Permanence - Two noughts add up to a nought...

From: acari Date: May 14th, 2009 12:26 pm (UTC) (Link)

I'm with you when it comes to English/French animosities, or even, taking my country as example, German/French ones. But you seem to completely disregard Eastern Europe. I'm not neccesarily talking about the Balkans even. I find German stereotypes about Poles not at all funny. I'm from the German/Polish border region, I have heard them all. And there's also still a lot of mistrust when it comes to Russia.

I agree with you when it comes to Western Europe, but I'd say Eastern Europe is not yet included in the list of countries considered completely equal therefore the stereotyping is not yet harmless and funny.

I find it strange using the word racism for modern inner-European prejudice. Personally, I'd only use that word to describe anti-migrant or anti-Roma sentiment.

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From: sami Date: May 14th, 2009 12:41 pm (UTC) (Link)

Yeah, but where inequality exists, it's a very different thing. Eastern Europe is a lot more problematic, I agree, and from my knowledge it doesn't seem to be in the place where jokes have become a safe outlet for residual animosity.

It could be a bit of a dialectal variation, I guess; in England and Australia, racism does apply that way, because prejudice based on being from different parts of Europe has been a very real problem in the past.

And it's a manifestation of racial hatred even if it's the English making jokes about the French - it's just that since it's historically a very recent innovation that the French and English aren't spending really amazing amounts of time trying to kill each other, it's like there's just a buildup of residual animosity that needs to find an outlet somewhere, so the resentment doesn't pile up again until another war starts.

But the power equivalence is *important* for this kind of thing not to be vile.

In an odd way, it's sort of like how my best friend and I have conversations that, taken out of context, people would probably think were signs that we hate each other - we frequently impugn one another's characters, the virtue of each other's mothers, and just insult each other. However, we know that we love each other, and so my BFF can say things to me she would kill anyone else for saying, and vice versa.

Only with less love, in the case of England and France.

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From: naraht Date: May 14th, 2009 01:02 pm (UTC) (Link)

Yeah, but where inequality exists, it's a very different thing. Eastern Europe is a lot more problematic, I agree, and from my knowledge it doesn't seem to be in the place where jokes have become a safe outlet for residual animosity.

Right. And you were sort of talking about the European Union as if inequality didn't still exist within it, even though it does include most of the Eastern European countries.

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From: sami Date: May 14th, 2009 01:36 pm (UTC) (Link)

No, I didn't. I said:

On the bright side, it's been years since any of these countries went to war with each other, when it used to be a near-constant; frankly I'll take making catty jokes about other European Union countries while still actually maintaining the EU as greatly preferable.

I would argue that, in context, "these countries" clearly implies the countries that I was already talking about, which is, in fact, mostly England and France, and in general terms, I had specified countries which are on roughly equal terms nowadays.

Extrapolating from there to Kosovo and oppressed countries in Eastern Europe and the implication that somehow I'm in favour of racist stereotyping of marginalised European ethnic groups because I think the evolution of Anglo-French and similar relations to the point where it's jokes instead of warfare and the jokes themselves are getting called out for their racism is a good thing...

... makes me tired. Because I haven't been interacting with you long, but I like you, so far, and I really don't want to get into an argument where I have to defend myself against implications of ethnic prejudice or defend my right, now and then, to think and write about things that aren't in any way related to attempted genocide - at least until people make a point of bringing up Kosovo and Eastern Europe and Poland and Roma.

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From: naraht Date: May 14th, 2009 01:41 pm (UTC) (Link)

Extrapolating from there to Kosovo and oppressed countries in Eastern Europe and the implication that somehow I'm in favour of racist stereotyping of marginalised European ethnic groups...

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I hope that's not what it sounded like I was implying because I certainly didn't mean that. It simply wasn't clear to me in the passage you quoted above that you were only talking about England and France and their near neighbors. That's all.

I think we've had misreadings on both sides here, so probably better to leave it here?

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From: sami Date: May 14th, 2009 02:58 pm (UTC) (Link)

I think I was over-reaching somewhat, but that was starting to be what it felt like. I apologise for taking it too far though - having a bit of an out-of-spoons error this evening. Difficult day.

Thanks also for taking the link out of the racefail post - I know being the links-person is hard work, and I admire your efforts, but yeah, this one's not related and would probably qualify rather as derailment to be included with the rest.

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From: naraht Date: May 14th, 2009 03:00 pm (UTC) (Link)

I hope your day (or evening) improves...

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