Moments of Permanence - Because I need to think about things that are differently stressful, sometimes...

From: lea_hazel Date: May 11th, 2009 12:46 pm (UTC) Sorry to drop in out of nowhere (Link)

I followed a bunch of links here, via Seeking Avalon. Sorry if I'm intruding.

I just wanted to mention: there is an alternate history series similar to what gohover described, but not quite. The premise is that the death of Jesus created a powerful new divine force that prevented the rise of Christianity, leaving Christians to take the role that Jews did in medieval Europe, of an often-dislocated and persecuted minority. The twist is, there are no Jews.

I mean, every single Jew in the entire world was overcome by the urge to believe that Jesus Christ was no only the Messiah, but also the son of God (which fact is stated explicitly to be fact in these books). Of all the readers I've spoken to, no one who read this book ever thought about why there weren't any Jews in this world who didn't believe in Jesus.

The series is Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel books. They revolve around an alterna-France that worships the son of Jesus and Mary Magdalene etc. etc. Carey does not appear to understand that "Jesus = Messiah = son of God" is not an automatic equation, nor do any of the other readers I discussed this with. Without going into a whole theological discussion, it just doesn't make sense from a sociological point of view that everyone would be so easily converted, when the equivalence in real life was highly controversial.

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From: sami Date: May 11th, 2009 12:56 pm (UTC) Re: Sorry to drop in out of nowhere (Link)

'sok, getting to posts like this via links is par for the course.

As for those books, I... wow. That sounds really kind of problematic, on a whole range of levels. (Some of which may be less failtastic in the books than in your summary? Maybe?)

Given that part of the reason, I've been told (from an Orthodox perspective), that some Jews are certain Jesus wasn't the Messiah is the very fact that he was able to be put to death so terribly (the Messiah should have been strong enough for that not to happen, as I understand it), I don't see how Jesus dying anyway and then a mysterious force causing the Christians to be weak and persecuted is going to change that.

I am Christian, myself, but based on your summary I still think that sounds pretty awful.

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From: lea_hazel Date: May 12th, 2009 05:53 am (UTC) Re: Sorry to drop in out of nowhere (Link)

It's pretty failtastic. I mean, like lady_ganesh said, it's hard to catch among the flying plot and tons of world-building, but once you realize it you see Carey set up a society of Jewish cultural markers, and an archtypical Friendly Rabbi Advisor. But these bearded, black-coat wearing people point to the death of Jesus as their genesis, not the three thousand odd years of history before that.

One of the problems is, in order to analyze the divergence between Judaism and early Christianity, you have to treat Christianity as myth and Jesus as a construct. Jewish theology typically treats Jesus as a false prophet, when he's addressed at all. Starting from the premise that the Christian mythology is factually correct precludes the Jewish tradition that Jesus was an upstart who wanted to be king, and accedes to the Christian tradition, that maintains that Judaism was theologically acceptable up until Jesus, but once it diverges from Christianity it becomes heresy for refusing to acknowledge the divinity of Christ.

The idea of "Judeo-Christianity" is an interesting social construct, but it creates the impression that Judaism and Christianity have a lot more in common than they actually do. It belies the fact that Jewish and Christian theologies are mutually exclusive; one has to be wrong for the other to be right, and it's the one that encompasses the majority of the Western world that usually wins out, unsurprisingly.

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From: lady_ganesh Date: May 11th, 2009 10:48 pm (UTC) Re: Sorry to drop in out of nowhere (Link)

I had not read far enough in the Kushiel books to realize that that was the case. Wow. (This is also perhaps one of the reasons people don't call it out-- by the time they get there they're so deeply immersed in the world they're more or less along for the ride.)

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From: lea_hazel Date: May 12th, 2009 05:56 am (UTC) Re: Sorry to drop in out of nowhere (Link)

Yes, it took me a while to notice, too. Carey emphasizes the cultural markers enough that it's easy to grab at the familiar and forget the discrepancies. I was so excited about a medieval setting with actual, recognizable Jews in it I forgot all about everything else. She also drops in some stuff with just enough historical background to make it tantalizing. I don't know how far you've read, though.

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From: lady_ganesh Date: May 12th, 2009 11:52 am (UTC) Re: Sorry to drop in out of nowhere (Link)

I've read, I think, about half the first book, and had realized the Jesus/Mary M. stuff. That all Jews had converted hadn't sunk in, though.

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