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From:[personal profile] trouble
Date: June 7th, 2009 02:38 pm (UTC)
This... really reads as incredibly paternalistic to me.

Essentially, it reads like, despite there having been d/Deaf people around for centuries, who have a vested interest in making their communications as easy and fluid for themselves as possible, a large number of hearing folks are going to get together and "solve" a problem for them - a problem that may or may not exist for a large number of d/Deaf people.

I also think it ignores the existence of ASL poetry and ABC stories, and jokes This is a culture that has traditions around communication and the like. Just ones that aren't widely acknowledged by the mainstream.

Other than one post by one d/Deaf person, I'm not even sure how much reading you've done on the history of deaf communication, or even the rather painful history of "Let's save the d/Deaf people".
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From:[personal profile] sami
Date: June 7th, 2009 02:53 pm (UTC)
I haven't. This is just vague thinking. And there's a reason why I think deaf people should be doing it, just with input from people like linguists, and possibly the assistance of people who are good at font-type stuff.

But the thing is, a lot of language stuff is best approached by the tandom efforts of native speakers and outsiders, because there's a lot of things which native speakers take for granted. Native speaker bias is a serious problem for working with every language, and, I suspect, one to which the d/Deaf are not immune.

Hence, what I actually think is that a bunch of deaf people should do this, with input from others. It's not that d/Deaf People Can't Do This, it's that no-one can conduct serious investigation of their own language without reference to and criticism from other language perspectives. (Some people have trouble even then - for example, there are people who refuse to recognise that the difference between unaspirated and aspirated /b/ sounds is significant, even though in some languages it is as different as /b/ and /p/. Because in English, both sounds are used, but are not used to distinguish meaning.)

I am aware of the existence of ASL poetry and so on. The problem is, as far as I know, there isn't a good way to, say, publish books of ASL poetry - not in a way that is as rewarding as publishing books of English poetry is, say. (Aesthetically rewarding, not financially, btw.)

If there is, fine, this isn't necessary - instead, the problem is that there can be Deaf people fluent in sign language, but constrained to write in English and forever feel trapped in an alien language, which means a serious fucking flaw in the education of at least some deaf children.

I actually do feel quite strongly about this - I have a thing about languages, and I think it's a deep, profound wrong for people to be without a proper, sufficient language of their own. And if even that one deaf person feels that way, that's one person too many, and there is a serious wrongness. I don't care if it's a problem that "may or may not exist for a large number of Deaf people" - it's a problem that exists for at least one, which means it probably exists for more than one, and it's a problem I consider important. Everyone should have access to their own language, and that includes being literate therein.
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From:[personal profile] lauredhel
Date: June 7th, 2009 02:58 pm (UTC)
deaf people should do this

there isn't a good way to, say, publish books of ASL poetry

I think it's a deep, profound wrong for people to be without a proper, sufficient language of their own.

I'm out. Out, out out. OMFG.
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From:[personal profile] willow
Date: June 7th, 2009 04:16 pm (UTC)
Ok... so I'm not imagining the words that are cuing me that there is - uhm, well, fail.
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